Dr. Samantha Cutrara:        Natasha, thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me today. I know that you are so busy, but I am so excited that you are here to share your decades of experience in this field. So thank you so much.

Natasha Henry:        You’re welcome, and I’m so happy to join you in this conversation, Samantha.

SC:        Like, I just think that your perspectives of being a historian, and author, and educator, and president of the Ontario Black History Society will just be a really rich addition to this. So thank you. Although I just listed a whole bunch of stuff, do you want to do your own introduction before we get started?

NH:        Sure. Yeah, as you had mentioned, I have quite a bit of experience as an educator. This year marks 21 years as an educator mainly at the elementary level, and I’m also currently the president of the Ontario Black History Society. And around my work in education, I melded to my roles as a historian, as an educator, and my work as a curriculum consultant.

And so I focus on developing resources specific to teaching about Black Canadian and African diasporic experiences for K-12, and I am currently completing my Ph.D. in history looking specifically at the enslavement of Africans in early Ontario. So my roles, the work that I do overlaps in many respects, but it’s something that based on my passion and I really enjoy doing in whichever capacity.

SC:        I said in my introduction before we gone onto Zoom that soon I’ll be saying like, Dr. Natasha Henry. So that’ll be good.

NH:        Working on it.

SC:        Yeah. And I’ve been using your work and familiar with your work since I’ve been in the field, so 10, 15 years. So again, it’s just wonderful to connect.

SC:        So with this “Pandemic Pedagogy” series, I’ve been asking everyone the same three questions. And the first one is have you thought history any difference because of this moment? Do you want to share your thoughts on that?

NH:        Sure. Absolutely. For me, I would say not so much. My views haven’t changed. There are some longstanding feelings that remain, but they have been heightened by the realities of the COVID pandemic. For me, in the work that I’ve done, whether it’s related to preserving and recovering narratives and experiences of people of African descent or with the curriculum, that for me, there’s always been a sense of urgency around the work because of the longstanding historic absences and exclusions. And so, for me, there’s always been this sense of priority and that has been magnified for me by the pandemic.

It’s also, for me, thinking about the very real fair of permanent loss. And again, that’s a feeling that’s been with me for quite some time as it relates to African-Canadian heritage, as well as there’s always this passion and this burning to document and to recover Black and African-Canadian experiences.

So for me, the COVID pandemic — the conditions of the pandemic, for me, parallel some of the very longstanding conditions as it relates to Black and African-Canadian experiences in the curriculum. And so these parallel conditions, as it relates to retrieving and preserving Black stories, it brought to mind as well the realities around Black heritage sites and what’s happening there. And so these sites connected to Black presence, but what is happening, right? There’s been this ongoing perpetual threat of some heritage site as it relates to Black history. And when you think about how much is compounded now and in the near future because of the conditions of the COVID pandemic, I also see as it relates to the teaching of Black experiences in K-12 curriculum. There has been this, again, this pattern of this erasure and this exclusion.

And so we do see that as the pandemic continues to impact the lives of people, we do see those parallel experiences of exclusion and adverse threat for particular groups including people of African descent. And so when I think about — and I’ve been thinking a lot in preparation for our conversation around those parallels of the conditions of the pandemic for present-day realities along with Black heritage and Black experiences in the curriculum.

And so just going back to some of the heritage sites that I talked about, there are sites that more recently have been under threat because of the similar conditions of the COVID pandemic such as scarcity of resources, right? So we’d look at, for example, the Oro African Church in Oro-Medonte in Simcoe County. And just recently, they did actually restore the church and there were some efforts there based on community activism working with different stakeholders, local and regional, right? And provincial stakeholders. So there is that, but then there’s still this ongoing threat of how long will this relic of a Black presence remain with us?

I also think about the Salem Chapel in Niagara Falls, the BME Church, and that’s the church where everyone knows Harriet Tubman attended while she lives in St. Catherine’s for 10 years. And over the past couple of years, there’s been a real urgent need for restoration efforts for this church which has been claimed as a national heritage site by a lot of people, right? Including our governments and other agencies. But then if we’re claiming this heritage and we understand the threat that this site is facing, how much support does it get? And again, we want to maintain that heritage and make sure that another of this particular artifact is available for people to visit, and to see, and to experience that history. But then when it comes to the conversation around that support, particularly financial support, is it included in those factors equally?

So there is that. And then one last very real and very pressing example is the Fugitive Slave Chapel in London, Ontario. A couple of years ago, it was under threat of being demolished to make way for a parking lot by the owner. And through a lot of efforts, the church was moved and it’s now sitting beside the Bethel Emmanuel BME Church, which is its future iteration of the Fugitive Slave Chapel.

But it’s been there. It hasn’t been restored. There’s a lot of issues around this restoration. And so as these conflicts continue to percolate, this site continues to be under threat. And so there’s a lot of things that play in terms of that. And to me, I saw that in terms of, again, the scarcity of resources how much access do Black heritage sites and organizations have to some of these resources to put them in a better situation moving forward?

And so I very much see how that plays out for the pandemic — in relation to the pandemic. And also, for me, it makes a connection to the idea of social death. And I’ve been thinking of, again, a lot about the impact that Black people are facing in COVID which we see in the United States and we see that here as well because of anti-Black racism and the racially disproportionate effects that are playing out in Black lives.

And so with COVID, I see that that parallels again as it relates to are there heritage sites, but also, again, the curriculum. I’ve been thinking about as well when we think of the racial disproportionality that’s ongoing because of COVID, I’ve been thinking about some of the frontline workers and how a lot of these people, the personal support workers, are Black women, right? And so what have their experiences been like? And what is the historic trajectory that led these women to be overly represented in these kinds of occupations?

And so I think I’ve been thinking about that as well. And when we think about the emergency distance learning that’s happening, right? In elementary school, in secondary school responding to the COVID regulations and the shutdown, and what has been the curricular response from teachers and school boards as it relates to culturally relevant resources for teachers and for students to represent Black and African-Canadian experiences, what has that been like?

And so, there’s a lot of parallels that I see. It’s not in a sense where I’m not saying that the death that I’m referring to equates to the loss of an individual, of a family member, but that the conditions that make that happen disproportionately. So for some segments of the population, has been playing out for some time and has been exacerbated by the COVID conditions.

And so we do see lastly in terms of another parallel that I see is going back to what I talked about that permanent loss, that sense of loss, that possible permanent loss that will happen after things kind of settle into a new norm. What will that loss look like? And then in particular, when we talk about Black heritage sites, where will we be after COVID? Right after things kind of settled down? What position will these organizations and these heritage sites be in? So that’s something that I’ve been thinking about, and then I also think about how with the curriculum and in this emergency distance learning situation, I’ve seen where a lot of the resources that have been shared and are being used, they intentionally or unintentionally kind of bring us back to the idea of a very strongly Euro-centric focus in the curriculum, in the history curriculum whether in other subject areas. And so what does that mean for Black youth, for Black children?

There is, again, it’s a contributing factor to the sense of loss of sense of self or the sense of identity forging that racial pride around those experiences. So if you don’t have — if we’re already struggling for that inclusion and that integration in the curriculum and in classrooms in a regular conditions, how is that playing out now within the emergency distance learning situation? And so those are some things that I’ve been thinking about in terms of the very strong parallels to the situation exacerbated by the pandemic.

SC:        Thank you for that. It’s so multi-layered, but it also really highlights the importance of recognizing those multiple layers of things. So one of the things I’m hearing from you is that it’s exacerbating issues that were already apparent when it came to recognizing, acknowledging, preserving Black Canadian history. It’s exacerbating that, but also it’s even more important to recognize that in this particular context because of the ways inequities and marginalization works. So it’s like, if all those rainbows in the window saying, “We’re all in this together,” one of the ways to also recognize that is to preserve histories that demonstrate that legacy of why there is a disproportionate amount of Black and racialized women in a lot of these frontline essential positions.

I think that’s a really powerful way too, because a lot of people are like, oh, I hope things are different, but what is that action? And that can be a really important source of action to ensure that these sites, for example, are preserved and ensure that we are bringing in the histories of these sites into our classrooms as well.

NH:        Right. Yes, and I should actually just — just hearing you talk about that as well, I did want to just mention a couple of other things that it kind of connects with [inaudible 0:15:14.9] relate to the first question here. When we’re talking about the racial disproportionality, I also have been looking at the impact of state policies on Black people in the province of Ontario and dealing with COVID and the documentation of data brought to mind the government of Ontario and their reticence to collect race-based data.

NH:        Right? Around the who’s impacted by COVID. And to me, that also parallels the Black experiences in histories that become hidden because of the stance that the state, right? The government often takes as it relates to not wanting to deal with race. Not wanting to deal with anti-Black racism [inaudible 0:16:13.0*wanting to have] this aggregated information. And I see that linked to the state curriculum. So the curriculum of the province where you still don’t have any learning expectations as it relates to Black Canadian experiences that all students in Ontario have to learn about.

And so what the result is in this refusal to pay attention to the very specificities of race in the province, whether it’s in the health data or in the curriculum is that it becomes institutionalized erasure, right? And so how do we think about addressing that during this pandemic in terms of, again, looking at how we can pay attention to that looking at the historical continuity of some of these gaps and be mindful of hopefully addressing these things so that on the other side of the pandemic, that we do begin to see things differently.

And I also was brought to mind around the resilience and the continuity of activism of Black people, because getting back to the collection of race-based data because of COVID, because a lot of people have been so vocal in different ways and different platforms, we have the province responding that they will be collecting race-based data as one example. And so I think about how Black people have been and always have been creative in adjusting to the conditions and to the climate, and how their activism has been ongoing even through this particular time of COVID.

People have been using a lot of social media to act to mobilize voices and to press for concerns and to seek responses, right? From the government and from other agencies. And so we continue to see that collective action from Black communities throughout this particular time, and I will talk a bit about that after in terms of the documentation of that. And I also see that in this collective, you know, this community that we’re seeing a community reconstitute itself in different ways, particularly in a virtual form.

And so whether it’s through the activism or whether it’s through some of the events that have come about as a result of the COVID condition, it’s been really interesting to see as a person, as an individual, and as a historian. And so I have been thinking about how people have been able to, with the social distancing measures, create some kind of sense of connection and community in spite of these conditions. And so these are some of the ideas that I would love to see how we will record this and document this as part of our history later on after the pandemic.

SC:        I think that that is a really amazing example. Thank you so much for making that link between the people advocating for race-based data related to COVID and without having that data, the erasure of those experiences in history because that has been ongoing throughout the histories of Canada on this land that we call Canada. And I think it’s a really powerful example to think about in our history classes, for example, about the evidence that we’re using sometimes have been crafted by the states to be purposefully exclusive to one set of experiences and to link that too to the ongoing activism.

Dr. Funke Aladejebi’s talk when she was saying that like, a lot of Black activists have been talking about these things that we can just see differently, see in a more mainstream way right now, but like these are the same issues that have been ongoing. I think those are really powerful examples to pull up. So thank you for that.

NH:        Mm-hmm. Yes. I mean, I think with — you know, there’s been a lot of calls for documentation of histories and experiences during COVID with people have been participating in the documentation whether or not they know it. On social media, for example, I’ve been seeing activities where students are encouraged to keep a journal, a COVID journal to document what they and their families have been going through during this time. And so it’s important for us to do that.

For us at the Ontario Black History Society, we’ve been having this conversation about what can we do, right? As a historical society to document to some of these experiences. So we’re thinking about how can we document again some of these experiences of Black frontline workers, again, paying attention to that historical context of why they’re in these particular roles? Thinking about some of the less savory experiences during COVID such as the racial profiling that Black youth, for example, have been experiencing in some places here in Canada because of the orders around public space, the use of public space.

But I also have been seeing as well how can we document — thinking about how can we document Black creativity during this time of COVID? And there’s been a lot of examples that have been wonderful looking at how young people have been using TikTok, right? Around to communicate and to capture stories thinking again about some of the events and how, for myself, even participating in some of those online events.

Just this past Saturday, there was a Versuz Sound Clash with — base is a reggae dancehall sound clash. So Beenie Man versus Bounty Killer. And just the community of people that were involved in this event, over 500,000 people worldwide. People, right? Such as myself were watching and tuned in looking at how the atmosphere and the feeling, the vibe was adapted to this online platform is really something to think about to document and to look at how this was done. And so there’s a lot of things to talk about and to record and to document as a heritage and historical society that we would want to pass on to people of future generations as well.

And then I also connect that to my work for my dissertation where it seems quite eerie that for my study, I want to create a database of African people who were enslaved in early Ontario recognizing the importance of the virtual platform, and here we are at a time of COVID when I’m starting my database and really seeing how important and how useful it could be to have these stories documented online for posterity to carry on these stories and to engage with it in a different way.

And so when we think of how we’ve been continuing history, recording history, document history through this time, there are some things that will definitely change and we need to be part of that and we need to make sure that the experiences and the stories of Black Canadians are carried forward.

SC:        One of the things that I am really interested to watch the evolution of is how the virtual communities that are being developed now because of COVID help shift and change those narratives as well, right? Like, if you have never been to a dancehall event, but you can do it from the comfort of your own home and like explore what that looks like, you might be able to build different types of community. And so I’m very interested to see how that will develop, and I think that’s a really good example of like this transnational community from around the world can all participate in this event and like enjoy this event. And I think that will be really interesting, but like you said, we also need to record it and document it for what it is and what it’s doing.

SC:        So this makes me think of my second question because we covered a lot of ground, but I’m interested in if you think that we are going to take some of this learning and translate it into our classrooms after this, do you think after this, the ways that we teach history will shift or should shift? I think the answer to that is yes, but do you think it will shift after this?

NH:        Well, I think it should. I agree with you. Absolutely, this will shift. I have two responses. I have a no and I have a yes in terms of —

SC:        Okay, bring it.

NH:        Yeah. I have to give you both. So I don’t think — for me personally, I don’t think that it will change much, especially as it relates to the more formal classroom, the official instruction in the classroom setting because the structures remain intact, right? So unless and until the ongoing push for change happens, I think that things will continue somewhat in the same measure. However, and still — right. So there is this activism that’s happening and I should say this activism happening at the same time when we’re dealing with COVID as it relates to the experiences of Black youth around the curriculum and around their learning in public schools.

And so I hope that with this ongoing push and agitation, that there will be some change if the structural change can happen, right? And so whether it’s the inclusion of curriculum expectations. So that is not just left up to individual teachers to be inclusive of Black histories and Black experiences, or whether other kinds of institutional changes that would allow for a more reimagining of that kind of formal instruction. So in that sense, it’s contingent upon what will happen in the long run.

I do also see a response to this lack of change by Black families during this emergency distance learning, and that I’ve noticed that a lot of Black families are choosing to kind of opt out of the official formal instruction that teachers are wanting to engage in in this new environment because it’s not responsive to their child’s, right? Cultural means.

NH:        And so families are opting to I guess homeschool in a sense, right? Given the conditions, and are deliberately choosing to use Afrocentric approaches to teaching their children, being more inclusive of African experiences whether it’s early African civilizations or being more intentional in teaching their children about Black experiences going along with maybe some of the expectations of the classroom. And that is a response because of that failure of change in the formal structure of things. And so Black families are deciding, well, this is an opportunity to do some unlearning and some new learning as a family together to better ground our children in their sense of self, in their sense of their racial identity because they have not been getting that in the classroom. And so this is the opportunity to do that.

As it relates to more community-based education, I am more hopeful in terms of seeing some changes. And I think about the work that the Ontario Black History Society that we have been doing, and we have to shift. We absolutely have to in our shifting in order to be more relevant and more accessible during this particular time.

Our programming, strong focus of our programming is to educate whether it’s the general public, whether it’s young people, or whether it’s to serve as a resource for educators. And so for us, not being able to have our events or in-person events right now has caused us to rethink and to reimagine our work so that we can continue our commitment to education on Black history’s past and present.

And so in that sense, I see that — and you did mention this earlier as well, that individuals and organizations who have always been pushing for change and always sought creative ways and new ways and different ways to engage and to be accessible. And so that’s what we will continue to do, as I said, in order to be accessible. And so we have to use the online platforms as one sense. Whether it’s through new online exhibits, digitizing some of our resources and our artifacts, hosting online events, these are things that are crucial in terms of thinking about and engaging in learning on Black histories in new ways.

SC:        Yes. And I think that, like I said, like there could be an element where there is a bit of a revitalization of certain engagement with community histories because of this in really powerful ways. And it’s been — like, I think the Ontario Black History Society has had, especially for the last five years or so, a really robust online presence. But even more so now, I see posts, I see things to think about and engage with, especially because I am home and it’s a lot easier to read three articles about something rather than just say, okay, I’ll read this one article in the weekend, and it could be really exciting. But it’s interesting what you’re saying about the structures of history curriculum. Just one second because I have like cat here sticking on my lipstick, and it’s — sorry. I’m just going to edit that out.

It’s interesting that you’re talking about the structures of curriculum because I speak to a lot of teachers for this series that are saying it’s been a lot easier to cut things out and really focus on like student-centric learning. And I’m a little worried that for some teachers that are engaging in that now will go back to very didactic types of teaching and learning practices once they get back in the classroom as a way to grasp for normality, but often that grasp from normality is a grasp for like White supremacist narratives. And I am worried that there could be a push for greater tradition in the classroom after this.

And other than people that I’ve spoken to talking about their own experience as parents, people I haven’t on this series talked about parents yet, and that’s a really interesting element that you brought up because it will be interesting if parents really force and push for different types of engagements with learning different content when their student goes ‘back’, whatever that looks like because they have been engaging and thinking about what they want their child to formally and informally know because of the unschooling/homeschooling that they have been doing.

NH:        Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you’ve presented another possibility upon return, the idea of returning to normal and what that meaning may hold for some people, right? And this return to — like you said, it would return to a more White dominant narratives. And so it’s important for us to think about that because these ideas are not neutral. What will it mean for the acknowledgement and the inclusion of Black stories and Black narratives?

And so it raises for me a couple of other questions as well. I think I’ve been thinking about as I’ve been working through and working on my dissertation and looking at the digital humanities approach that I’m taking to the enslavement of Africans here in early Canada, thinking about the importance of the availability and the accessibility of Black data. And so whether that’s through, again, that this stream, this thread of conversation around COVID and that experience, but also historically, past and present stories as well that need to be made accessible.

And so if teachers are, hopefully, in the choices that they’re giving to students in the emergency distance learning, that some of those choices do include Black stories, Black experiences particular to Canadian history that that’s important. And then if it this then return when we return to the classroom, is there going to be more agitation or more recognition of the importance of making sure that these stories are available for all young students, particularly for Black youth, but absolutely necessary for all students? Because if we want to address some of the issues of inequities and racism, all of our young people need to be educated critically in a way that helps to see things improve, right? As we move on in the future.

I also wonder what the after effect will be as it relates to the teaching of Black histories? Particular, I think about what will happen in the university sense when it’s inevitable that there will be some recovery austerity measures that universities, that post-secondary institutions are going to undertake. And so what will that mean for the very recent headway made in Black studies here in Canada?

Just looking at what’s been happening in the United States where some academics have been talking about getting laid off in particular fields and disciplines, particularly Black histories and Black studies that the institutions are implementing there, what will that mean? Well, that happened here, right? And again, what will it mean for Black scholars and for Black academics who want to document and recording and retrieve whether it’s the experience through COVID or whether it’s more just teaching and recovering Black stories and Black experiences, what will it mean in terms of opportunities post-COVID as some of these institutions seek to address a lot of the losses? The financial losses. Who will bear the weight of that?

And often when we look at racial disproportionality, again, for example, it’s Black people who will face some of that impact. And so I really do wonder what that will look like post-COVID.

SC:        Yeah. I was talking with Sean Sean Kheraj from New York University who is a historian and environmental historian, but he’s also the associate dean in liberal arts and professional studies right now at York, and we were talking about how important like a liberal arts education is right now. And we were talking — I think I said in the introduction, I don’t know if we said it together, but like the importance of interdisciplinarity and something like Black studies demonstrates that critical liberal arts interdisciplinary historical knowledge and foundation and mobilization that is going to be essential for rebuilding a world after this.

I just want to show you what is happening here. Sorry, just there is this happening [inaudible 0:38:59.8] to asking you a little bit.

NH:        They’re recording?

SC:        And I also just want to pick up on something else you had said about like, you know, we’re talking about Black students, but not just Black students because, to me, this is a really good segue into my last question about imagining a new ‘we’. And you’ve used the word imagining a little bit too.

I’ve worked in classrooms where teachers will say like, we need to do Canadian history first and then we’ll get to Black history. And like, that is super problematic, but in particular, it’s super problematic if all of the students in your class are Black. And I worked with one teacher who was like, well, we have this one White student. Like, we have to make sure that his history is also being covered. And I’m like, well, this is his history. Because like the histories of White racism is integral to who he is as a White person. And it was really disturbing to have teachers even with articulated commitments to anti-racist teaching articulate history in these ways.

And that’s why my upcoming book “Transforming the Canadian History Classroom: Imagining a New ‘We’” is really about how foregrounding. Ensuring that we are foregrounding the complexities of being Canadian in our Canadian history classrooms for our students who are Canadian, who might be Black Canadian, who might be Caribbean Canadian, who might be White Canadian, who might just say I’m Canadian regardless of my racial or ethnic or cultural affiliations, I just want to be understood as Canadian first.

And so I wonder if you have any thoughts about this notion of imagining a new ‘we’? Do you think that we can or will be able to imagine a new ‘we’ differently because of this moment? More because of this moment? Do you think it will exacerbate? Like you said, divisions that are already there? Or do you think there’s promise for understanding the ways that the structures, like you said, are exacerbating racial inequities?

NH:        Well, let me just kind of piggyback up what you were saying in your intro to this third question, that there is on the flip side, we also have educators who will say, “Well, we don’t have any Black students in our classrooms depending you know the pick. Tpn the geographical location or there may be only one or two Black students. So do we need to focus on including and acknowledging Black history?” So there is that. And that’s something that plays out a lot in different areas.

And so it really is about whether or not it shouldn’t be incumbent upon the presence of a Black person in the space to dictate whether or not the experiences of Black people in Canada are taught in the classroom. But again, getting back to the whole structure of things, what is guiding the responses of a lot of educators is the exclusion of specific learning expectations in the curriculum. And so that void gap allows for that kind of response to say we’re going to teach what’s in the curriculum, which is very Euro-centric, very White, right? And so I’m going to teach it that. That is the official expectations that should be taught, and then all of the other stories, the kind of optional topics in the curriculum document or any other kind of stories will be brought in at different times as [inaudible 0:42:53.4*Adoms,] not and part of the Canadian narrative.

And so I do think that if post-pandemic, if the continued decades long advocacy of Black families and communities is realized that we get some expectations in the curriculum, that helps to disrupt that in some sense, right? In terms of official guidance in structure, but you also have to disrupt mindsets and ideologies that are held by, right? By educators in terms of what they view to be important and what they view to be Canadian history and Canadian narratives as well. So then there is that other aspect as well.

And so a part of me I guess is hopeful that we could see something different. And again, it’s going to be the continuity of this push and this agitation by Black families and Black communities for recognition of these histories. And thinking about this ‘we’ that you said, right? Imagining a new ‘we’, and the conversation of the discourse during the pandemic is we’re in this together. But that is not a reality, right?

NH:        And so we have to, in our classrooms, be able to teach our students to critically debunk that and deconstruct that. When we say we’re all in this together, that is not a reality, however, it can be used as a call to action, right? And in recognizing that that’s not the case, how can we change it? How can we make that true? How can we encourage and create spaces for young people to talk about and to learn about belonging or not belonging, about care, collective community care, and thinking about concern for all, right? If we want that to be the true story, we then have to be able to create classrooms where we are recognizing and teaching about differences and inequalities, right? And going from historic through to contemporary. We have to do that or else we’re failing our young people.

And if we want them as adults to be in a better position to address some of the things that we’re facing now during this pandemic, we have to be intentional in our instruction, right? And in our pedagogical approaches too teaching them. And so how will we force institutions whether as it relates to health, or education, and other institutions to address these differences and these inequalities that have been playing out post (during) and — I mean, sorry, pre (during) and will play out post-COVID.

And the classroom really lends itself again to some really deep meaningful engagement with some of these issues. And as educators, if we can do that in large numbers, not just one-offs and — you know what I mean? If we can really do that in a more intentional, more  I guess systemic way through, for example, an anti-racist pedagogical approach, we would really have some young people to reckon with. They are already asking these questions. They are already making these observations of difference and inequality, and we have to create the space for them to learn about that and to engage with that and to be the ones to come up with solutions, because they’re very much capable of doing that.

And so, we do have the power to reimagine and to define ‘we’ in a way that really is inclusive of everyone in all of their differences, not just trying to make everyone the dame, right?

NH:        And making things equitable. This ‘we’ that we are envisioning, this future ‘we’, this new ‘we’ has to be one that things are equitable for all, and that means taking different approaches to address different issues so that we all then become in a better position together.

SC:        Yeah. Like, I love how you were like, if we do this in our classrooms, the youth are going to be a force to be reckoned with, because what I see with my work with you is that they were just dying for recognition of the complexities and they want to be engaged with these ideas in the classroom because they don’t know where to put their lived experiences of inequities and the things that they are seeing about discrimination. They don’t know where to put that energy. They want to understand the historical legacy of that, and they’re looking for their classrooms as well as their families, their communities, their places of worship to be able to make sense of that. And for me —

NH:        Yeah, sorry. Just as you’ve mentioned there as well, oftentimes these young people experience these things and they think it’s an isolation, right? Because they may not, and some people have these conversations at home, but they may not have had the opportunity to really contextualize their experience into a broader context, historical context. And so, like we think about the impact that that will then have on a young person if they go through life not recognizing and not knowing that there are systemic forces at play in that post-experiences that they may think is just happening to them or they may place the blame on themselves.

And so we have a responsibility, right? In order to help them to bring their entire selves to the learning space whether it’s a physical classroom or whether it’s online in order to engage with these thoughts, and these experiences, and these ideas.

SC:        Yeah. There is this one article. I can’t think of the reference off the top of my head, but through the magic of editing, that reference is right below this video now that said like, the Canadian youth in particular are really proud of the cultural diversity that they understand to be Canada, but that they are going to get more dissolution by what that means the more that they have personal experiences of discrimination that they can’t link to a systematic element of like you saying, like having curriculum that doesn’t have a curriculum expectation related to a very long, rich history of Black Canadians on this land.

And when I preface that question, I don’t mean to suggest that just because there’s Black students in the room, that’s the only reason why you have to teach Black history, but rather like the violence of not teaching Black history is even more apparent when you have Black students in the classroom and you’re like, look at what I’m doing. I am not withholding my responsibility to demonstrate the complex legacies that frame all of our lives in this space. So thank you for making that distinction if that wasn’t clear.

NH:        Yeah, that wasn’t how I took it. It’s just to demonstrate how it plays out —

SC:        No, no, you’re right. You’re right.

NH:        — on both sides. And so there is still a level of violence that is experienced in both scenarios, right?

NH:        And so we just be cognizant of how that could play out and then how those narratives are then used to kind of sometimes to silence, right? To silence those stories.

SC:        And silence the experiences of young people in the room. Because even if they don’t know like their own personal histories, like it’s embodied in a lot of ways. Like, I have been in classrooms as a student where I’m just like, this does not feel right. Like this does not make sense with my experiences. And students feel that too, right? Like, young people feel that even if they can’t articulate it.

NH:        And if we fail to do in what we’re talking about, if we fail to do that, then we fail to bring in another generation of young people today in terms of getting them to see how relevant history is to their lives. And the fact that, as I’d like to say to the young people, that you are history in the making. And so history isn’t just 1814, 1834 or 1956, history is today and you are part of history as well. But if we, again, do not provide them with the space to have those skills and to see those connections, we are not going to bring in another generation of people who love history, who understand its complexities, who want to engage with it, who want to revise it, who want to present it in different, creative ways, we will fail to address that.

And I don’t know how much out of scope this is, but there’s the complications with history departments about how can they remain relevant today, right? In terms of whether it’s undergraduate studies or graduate studies, how can they continue to bring in young people into the field? Well, it starts in elementary and in high school, right? And if we don’t engage young people with history in very creative ways, in ways that is of interest to them, if we’re not meeting them where they are, then we’re also failing in that respect in order to grow and enhance the discipline.

SC:        Yeah. I was talking to another teacher earlier today and she was saying her grade 10 students would say to her like, “Miss, like why is this important?” And she’s like, I realize that really what they are asking is how was this relevant and important to my life today? And I think those of us who are enmeshed in the field of history know that, but we also know, hopefully, that there are a lot of 10-year-olds, 15-year-olds, 5-year-olds who will continuously wonder that if they are not learning histories that demonstrate the complexities of the world that they know.

So thank you so much for this, Natasha. This was amazing.

NH:        Wonderful. Yes, thank you, Samantha. That was a great conversation.

SC:        Thank you so much, and I will provide the links to the Ontario Black History Society and the rest of the work that you would like to share below this video so people know how to get in touch with you, as well as to support the work of the Ontario Black History Society. So thank you again, and I look forward to calling you doctor in the future. Not so distant future.

NH:        Okay, thank you.

SC:        Okay, bye.

NH:        Yeah. And let me know whatever you need me to send to you. Links or anything, then just let me know and I’ll send them along.

SC:        Sure. Do you want to just say goodbye really quickly, and then I want to talk to you about something else like not for the video series?

NH:        Okay. And thank you for having me, Samantha. This is a wonderful conversation. I really wanted to thank you for creating this platform for history educators in different spheres to engage in this conversation. It’s something that’s really important, and we do hope that we continue to engage young people in history, learning about history, and teaching about history. And so I’m looking forward to your ongoing work as well in this area. So thank you again.

SC:        Well, thank you, and likewise. I hope we find more points of collaboration in the future whether that is virtually or in person. So thank you again.

NH:        Okay.

SC:        Okay, bye.

NH:        Bye.

SC:        Okay, that was great. I’m going to stop recording.